As always, a fine, insightful discussion. I was especially struck by what you all had to say about the way Captain Stransky's high social status better accounts for the violence of empire and its wars than even the psychopathic behavior of particular soldiers and officers. That truth was born out for me as I watched a DVD of Leni Riefenstahl's 1935 propaganda film, Triumph of the Will. It's clear from that film how the pressure to become loyal to empire can be instilled in all populations, and, where already present, can be exacerbated in those in higher classes.
This "Few outside the aficionados bother to mention Cross of Iron, Peckinpah’s foray into the Great War," confused me. Initially I thought, how interesting a WWII film featuring the Eastern Front - where Hitler's back was actually broken. Then I saw the reference to the Great War, and I thought, OK was this WWI, and if so, why the Nazi mentions? So I looked it up. Now I am thinking, OK, the young people (anyone under 40, LOL) have decided to refer to WWII as the Great War? Or did that just happen in the write up?
Oh that's interesting--Van is technically over 40, Lyle is just under 40, but for both of us WWII was always referred to as the great war because it was the only one that's considered the "good" war. But yeah, I guess there are a lot of older references to WWI as the great war. Maybe, and I'm spitballing here, it's insane to call a war "great," lol
That is so interesting because this is the first time that I ever heard WWII referred to as The Great War, but of course I have spent a great deal of time overseas since 1997. WWI was referred to as The Great War - not in the sense of wonderful, but in the sense of it taking in so much of the world - even colonial troops were brought into fight, which also raised criticism about bringing in non-white men to shoot at and be shot at by white men.
I had always been taught that it was not referred to as World War I initially because there was not yet a II (although there were suspicions that something like this would follow). However, there is documentation indicating that it was called several things: First World War, the European War, The Great War, and World War I - I think that what one called it could be based on where one was living and/or getting news and information - but this is the first time I saw World War II referred to as The Great War, and it is interesting that the meaning of "Great" has shifted. Alas, so many rabbit holes and so little time...
Yikes. That was totally just a typo on my part. I taught a course on WWI so very much know it's most common name (The Great War). Meant to write "the Good War" and just fixed it. Thanks so much!
Well actually the typo brought back a wealth of historical research memories, so it has made this into a Great Day for me. I had forgotten about the huge dump of diplomatic papers that made WWI such a treasure trove for historians - the forerunner to Wikileaks brought to us by the Bolshies. I was very surprised during the 100 year anniversary run-up to WWI to hear the interpretations putting on the blame on Serbia, so nothing would surprise me
BTW, I am really enjoying the Bang-Bang podcast. I have never been big on war movies, but listening to the analysis and insight that is being covered here has me making a list of films to hunker down with over the winter!
As always, a fine, insightful discussion. I was especially struck by what you all had to say about the way Captain Stransky's high social status better accounts for the violence of empire and its wars than even the psychopathic behavior of particular soldiers and officers. That truth was born out for me as I watched a DVD of Leni Riefenstahl's 1935 propaganda film, Triumph of the Will. It's clear from that film how the pressure to become loyal to empire can be instilled in all populations, and, where already present, can be exacerbated in those in higher classes.
Well said!
This "Few outside the aficionados bother to mention Cross of Iron, Peckinpah’s foray into the Great War," confused me. Initially I thought, how interesting a WWII film featuring the Eastern Front - where Hitler's back was actually broken. Then I saw the reference to the Great War, and I thought, OK was this WWI, and if so, why the Nazi mentions? So I looked it up. Now I am thinking, OK, the young people (anyone under 40, LOL) have decided to refer to WWII as the Great War? Or did that just happen in the write up?
Oh that's interesting--Van is technically over 40, Lyle is just under 40, but for both of us WWII was always referred to as the great war because it was the only one that's considered the "good" war. But yeah, I guess there are a lot of older references to WWI as the great war. Maybe, and I'm spitballing here, it's insane to call a war "great," lol
That is so interesting because this is the first time that I ever heard WWII referred to as The Great War, but of course I have spent a great deal of time overseas since 1997. WWI was referred to as The Great War - not in the sense of wonderful, but in the sense of it taking in so much of the world - even colonial troops were brought into fight, which also raised criticism about bringing in non-white men to shoot at and be shot at by white men.
I had always been taught that it was not referred to as World War I initially because there was not yet a II (although there were suspicions that something like this would follow). However, there is documentation indicating that it was called several things: First World War, the European War, The Great War, and World War I - I think that what one called it could be based on where one was living and/or getting news and information - but this is the first time I saw World War II referred to as The Great War, and it is interesting that the meaning of "Great" has shifted. Alas, so many rabbit holes and so little time...
Yikes. That was totally just a typo on my part. I taught a course on WWI so very much know it's most common name (The Great War). Meant to write "the Good War" and just fixed it. Thanks so much!
Well actually the typo brought back a wealth of historical research memories, so it has made this into a Great Day for me. I had forgotten about the huge dump of diplomatic papers that made WWI such a treasure trove for historians - the forerunner to Wikileaks brought to us by the Bolshies. I was very surprised during the 100 year anniversary run-up to WWI to hear the interpretations putting on the blame on Serbia, so nothing would surprise me
BTW, I am really enjoying the Bang-Bang podcast. I have never been big on war movies, but listening to the analysis and insight that is being covered here has me making a list of films to hunker down with over the winter!
Glad to hear on all counts!
haha, not great meaning good but great meaning bad!